Episode 2 Podcast > Full Transcript
Nicole Witt, Greeting:
Welcome, everyone. I want to welcome all the listeners to the second episode of Adopting! The Podcast. I am so excited to be your host for this journey. I'm Nicole Witt, Executive Director of The Adoption Consultancy. And we guide pre-adoptive parents, step by step, throughout the adoption journey.
In Adopting! The Podcast, we're going to focus on the issues, questions and concerns you have as you get started in your adoption journey. So, this is for people who are just considering adoption, who are brand new to the process or early in the process, who are trying to get their questions answered and figure out their best path forward, learn about what to expect and generally, how the process works.
Nicole Witt, Intro:
In today's episode, we are going to start you on the path of pursuing adoption without misinformation. We're going to kind of pull back the curtain on all of those lifetime movies you've seen and all the horror stories that your neighbors, cousins, brother in-law can't wait to tell you about adoption.
So, that's right. We're going to talk about adoption myths versus realities, which, you know, all kidding aside, is a critically serious topic. There is so much misinformation and disinformation out there about adoption that much of it has become accepted as fact. And those false facts can keep people from pursuing adoption when knowing the truth could really encourage them on their journey instead.
So, our goal today is to dispel the most common myths so that you can make the decision about pursuing adoption from as informed of a perspective as possible.
To help me do that, I have two guests joining me today. I want to welcome Amy Imber. She's Executive Director of Connecting Hearts Adoption. Amy and her agency have been solely providing the home study service to prospective adoptive families across Florida since 2008. So, thanks so much for joining us, Amy.
Amy Imber:
Thank you for having me.
Nicole:
Sure.
And then we also Rob Webster, who's a Board-Certified Adoption Attorney with Jeanne T. Tate PA, whose practice focuses on litigation and appeals arising from contested adoptions. Welcome, Rob. Thanks for being here.
Rob Webster:
Thanks so much for having me, Nicole. Appreciate it.
Nicole:
Sure.
So, let's start at the very beginning of the process and the big question of, “Is adoption even possible?”
Many people believe that they can't adopt if they're single, if they're gay, if they're over 40, if they're not active, mainstream Christians, even things such as if they have an HIV or hepatitis diagnosis or are a transplant recipient or a cancer survivor or have an arrest history. So, they don't even get started when adoption could be a wonderful option for them.
So, I work with clients in these categories all the time who adopt successfully. And one of the things I've noticed over the years is that the expectant moms and the birth moms are becoming more and more open minded than they were years ago.
For instance, it used to be extremely difficult for male same sex couples to get selected. And now, I'm finding that that's much more commonplace. Just for one example, one of the gay couples that I worked with this year adopted in only two weeks. So, it went really quickly for them.
Amy, what do you see in your practice across all of these categories? Do you see that same fear of people being sure that there's no way they'd even be able to be allowed to adopt?
Any:
I find that families who thought that it would be difficult for them to adopt are definitely adopting successfully. I think what happens is that they'll have a friend or two that adopts and they see how happy they are and how it was possible for their friend, who's maybe also either in a same sex couple or single or over 40 or HIV positive or whatever the situation may be. They see a friend adopt successfully and they're like, “Well, if they can do it, so can I.”
Nicole:
Mm hmm.
And they absolutely can. Right? I mean, without too much difficulty. It can take a bit longer to get selected by an expectant mom, but that can be offset if they're more flexible in terms of the different parameters that they're open to.
Amy:
Absolutely. I tell families that the more open you are, the more opportunities there will be.
Nicole:
Yeah, awesome. Okay.
And then once people feel comfortable that they can, in theory, adopt, I know that one of the next big questions is they wonder if they can actually afford it. And a lot of times, they believe that there's just no way for sort of the regular person to pay for adoption, especially because so many people are coming to adoption after years of infertility and paying for all of those treatments. So, they can be tapped out from a financial perspective.
Do either of you guys want to comment on some of the different ways that your clients cover the costs of adoption?
Amy:
We have lots of families that take out adoption-specific loans. A lot of local credit unions offer a specific loan programs that can help with the cost of adoption. There are grants that could be available to families to help with adoption. A lot of large employers have adoption reimbursement programs to help them with the cost of adoption.
I mean, most families that we work with are not rich or independently wealthy. Most of them have saved for years and have something in the bank. But we tell families all the time that if you have $25 thousand saved in the bank, that's great. It would not be responsible to spend every last dime of that adopting a baby. You have to have something in your savings for a rainy day. And so, we have lots of families that that use the loan programs in order to adopt.
Nicole:
Yeah.
And I think a lot of people that when they first hear of that, that sounds very strange to them; the idea of taking out a loan to adopt a baby. But then they don't think twice about taking out of, whatever, $30 thousand loan for a car. So, when you kind of put it in that perspective, it can make more sense.
Rob, do you have any thoughts on that? I know that your organization has close connections to a grant organization as well.
Rob:
Yeah, I would echo what Amy said. And most of our clients take out some form of loans or receive grant money. There are several organizations out there that do award grant money. I think a lot of prospective adoptive parents sometimes look at those and think, “Well, it's a moon shot. Like there's no chance for actually going to get any grant money. They'd probably pick one out of a thousand couples to move forward and award this grant money to.”
But from my experience, oftentimes, prospective adoptive parents do get grant money. Sometimes it doesn't help with the immediate out-of-pocket cost of, say, getting a home study or starting the process, but it is really helpful to apply for those grants.
And I think it's great to have competent adoption professionals who can help you find where those grants are. So, obviously, Nicole, I know that you help a lot of your families out in that area. It's all about knowing where to look and how to apply and what needs to be those applications. And I know that Amy has done yeoman's work on that front for many of her clients as well.
But, yeah, I would encourage prospective adoptive parents to really pursue some of those grants because they are available and many of our prospective adoptive parents are awarded those grants ultimately.
Nicole:
That's great. That's great to hear. And then another area, of course, is fundraising, which a lot of people don't think of. And that can be a little bit of a controversial area, but I have lots of clients who do fundraising and some raise significant sums of money doing that; sometimes more than $20 thousand.
And Amy, you also mentioned employer programs. A lot of people aren't aware that their employers may offer adoption reimbursement. Some don't, and some offer a small amount. But I'm seeing more and more of my clients where their employers are offering 10 thousand- $20 thousand. So, that's definitely something that's worth exploring and worth asking about.
Amy:
Yeah.
Here in Orlando, there's a very big theme park that has an enormous adoption reimbursement program, now, that has helped hundreds of people successfully adopt their children. It pays almost their full costs.
Nicole:
That's amazing.
Amy:
Reimbursing them. And so, there definitely are lots of employers that have programs that they don't maybe share that information willingly. People need to ask.
Nicole:
Yes, absolutely. Okay.
So, once people kind of understand that they can adopt and they can afford it, the next big area of concern is often how long it will take. And specifically, they hear that it takes years to adopt a healthy newborn or that healthy newborns aren't even available for adoption.
And that can be true in some instances. You know, adopting through the foster care system can take a very long time. Even private adoption with certain agencies can take a long time.
But generally, what I see in my practice is that it certainly doesn't need to. I mean, almost all of my clients adopt in less than a year and a lot of them adopt in a lot less than a year. I mean, I just mentioned the one couple that adopted in only two weeks. I had another couple this year who matched in three weeks with the baby who had been born the day before. I mean, those aren't the norm, but they're also not quite as unusual as people think.
So, Amy, I know that you also see a lot of quick placements. Do you have anything to add on that topic?
Amy:
I mean, I think that being able to adopt in a reasonable period of time is about making good choices in this process from the get go and choosing resources that tell them we can help you adopt in less than a year.
There are lots of agencies and attorneys out there who have average wait times that are much longer. And for the most part, I find that most of my families or seeing people beyond; as that somebody has an 18- to 24-month wait. People will tell them that because they want to set reasonable expectations.
But we have lots of families that adopt in less than a year, as long as they – not only do they need to work with reputable resources, but I think sometimes working with more than one at a time also can help make process happen sooner than later.
Nicole:
Definitely. The more opportunities, the faster things are going to go. Absolutely.
So, once people have started the process and are waiting for a match, I think there's a lot of fear that stems from these stereotypes about who the expectant moms are. And one of the big ones is that they are all sort of regular hard drug users, and drinkers, and homeless, and so on.
So, I know that there's really not something we can necessarily say is the typical expectant mom, but in so much as there is one, Rob, do you want to comment on sort of the types of expectant moms that your agency tends to see? And I'm sure it runs the whole gamut.
Rob:
Yeah, I think that's a good a good point, Nicole, that it does run the whole gamut. I think, sometimes you have people that come in with expectations that all of the birth mothers are going to be girls in high school that accidentally got pregnant. And then you've got another subset of people that are going to come to the process and think all the birth mothers are out there using eight, nine different types of drugs. And like with most things, it somewhere falls in the middle.
So, it does run the gamut. You do have birth mothers that have been using drugs throughout the pregnancy. I'm certainly not a doctor, so I'm not going to speak on how that will ultimately affect the child. But I think one of the things that I've learned, being in this area for so long is how resilient children typically are to some of those type of things.
And obviously, there's a difference between the type of drug use and how long and to what extent. But, I think, Amy mentioned this earlier; if you're more willing to accept a birth mother that's had cigarettes during her pregnancy or had some drug use throughout the pregnancy, you're often going to be waiting less time than somebody who doesn't want to have any alcohol, cigarette use, drug use, anything like that. But of course, it all comes down to what you're comfortable with as an adoptive couple moving forward.
Nicole:
Yeah, absolutely.
Amy, do you want to comment on the types of expectant moms that your clients tend to match with?
Amy:
Well, I think that adopting a healthy baby is very possible, even when there is some sort of substance exposure. You can adopt a baby who is very healthy, who's born to a woman who's been maybe smoking cigarettes or using marijuana during her pregnancy. Those babies can be very healthy.
So, I think healthy is almost a relative term. I think everybody has their own definition of what that is.
Nicole:
Yeah.
And ultimately, I mean, that's what it comes down to is, is the baby healthy? That's what almost everybody wants. And I think people sometimes kind of jump to a conclusion, if they hear that the birth mom is using something that sounds scary to them, that they automatically say, “Oh, no, no, I won't accept that.”
But if it doesn't mean that the baby's not going to be healthy, then that's really kind of the bottom line. So, I think getting educated on some of those things can help people to make more informed decisions on that topic for sure.
Amy:
I have never had a family take a baby home who was born under circumstances that was not anticipated.
Nicole:
Mm hmm.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. They know the information. And making an informed decision is what it's all about, right? Understanding what you're comfortable with and what you're not, because it is a lifelong commitment. And you absolutely need to be comfortable.
So, I think another big myth is that the expectant mom doesn't want to parent her child. That's a term that we hear a lot of people say. And maybe it's just sort of a bit of the vernacular versus thinking about the meaning behind it.
But I think there's a really important distinction to make there, in that most of the expectant moms want more than anything to be able to parent this child. And they know that they just can't provide the child with the kind of life that they want the child to have. It's a very loving and thoughtful and incredibly difficult decision that they're making out of love for that child versus this idea of they just don't want to parent and they want to just sort of move along.
Do either of you have anything to add to that idea or how you've seen that myth come into play with the adoptive parents that you work with?
Rob:
Yeah, I would agree, Nicole, that it often is not a birth mother doesn't want to parent her child. So, we've tried to make – and I've been guilty of saying a birth mother is giving up her child. And we try to change that terminology and say, “Birth mother is placing her child up for adoption.” And it may seem minor, but oftentimes it's not a situation where a birth mother is not wanting to parent, they're just in a situation where they're incapable of doing so for whatever reason. And they're making a selfless decision here to place the child with prospective adoptive parents who can give their child the life that they want to give them, but can't currently at that time.
And I think it kind of goes back to everybody's in kind of a different place in life. So, there's no hard set rule on a birth mother's mindset. And I'm sure all three of us have seen birth mothers that kind of fall anywhere in that spectrum. And everybody kind of deals with things a little bit differently.
But I would agree that the majority of them that I've seen, it's not that they don't want to parent their child. It's just most of them, at that current time, are not able to do so in the manner that they would like to.
Nicole:
Yeah, absolutely. And kind of tying this on to those who do ultimately decide to try to parent and connecting that back to the financial points that we were talking about. That's, of course, it's a big fear of the hopeful adoptive parents.
But there's also a myth associated with the finances of if the birth mom does choose to parent, people fear that that they lose all the money, every penny that they've put into an adoption.
And certainly there is almost always some financial risk. The birth mom's pregnancy-related expenses are usually at risk. Sometimes there are agency fees or legal fees that are at risk. So, it is real money. It is a real risk, but it's not the whole cost of the adoption. And often it's not even half the cost of the adoption.
Rob, do you want to comment on your agency's policies or sort of general comments with how you see people kind of moving on financially after a fall through?
Rob:
Yeah, and of course, nobody goes into this wanting a disrupted adoption. But I will take this opportunity again to kind of reiterate how important it is to use competent adoption professionals and to consult with people like you, Nicole, and your agency and Amy and her agency that can kind of steer you away from maybe agencies that have a type of financial arrangement where you might lose more if you have a disrupted adoption.
Like in any business, in any profession, everybody does things a little bit differently. And there are many, many agencies throughout the State of Florida that have different type of financial arrangements with their prospective adoptive parents on what happens when there is a disrupted adoption.
So, that's why it's so important to reach out to people like Nicole and Amy and say, “Hey, what have you heard about this agency? What agencies would you recommend?”
Because not all of them are created equal as far as, hey, if we have a disruption, what happens next? What happens to the money that we put in? What happens to the birth mother, living expenses, how much is refundable? And that's so important to use professionals like that.
Oftentimes, getting home study is one of the first things you're going to have done, and that would be if you use somebody very competent like Amy, she's going to be able to tell you, “Hey, when you're looking at agencies, here's what to look for.” And obviously the same with people that you're working with, Nicole.
So, that's just so important. I can't reiterate that enough to use people like yourselves to kind of weed out agencies that might otherwise not have such a forgiving financial set up for disruption's.
Amy:
We tell families all of the time that there is no such thing as a risk-free adoption. But we also provide our families with a list of questions that they need to be asking when making inquiries and deciding who it is, they want to work with.
And one of those questions is, “How much of my money is refunded to me if an expectant mother changes her mind?” As well as, “Will I get trust account statements, so I can see how my money is being spent?”
So, a lot of agencies, like where Rob works at {indistinct 20:01} Options, they do provide their families with a trust account statements, I believe, every month, so they can know exactly how much is being spent out of a birth mother's or expectant mother’s expense budget. So, if her account starts running low, they can expect a phone call because maybe they need to deposit more money.
But I talk to families, “Not only do you want to know what the risk is financially, but you want to make sure that you are making good choices with who you work with, so that they will do a good job keeping track of how your money is being spent because you are your greatest advocate in all of this.
Nicole:
That's great advice. And those are really important questions for people to ask.
Now, talking about concerns related to after they after the placement, assuming everything does go through smoothly, Amy, you're more involved with families at this stage with their post-placement visits.
And I know that a big fear going in is that they worry about bonding with the child or will they love the child as much as they would a biological child? Do you want to comment on that, what you see with your families?
Amy:
Yeah, I think that's a big fear that families have from the beginning when they start this whole process is, “Will I be able to love a baby the same as if I had given birth to him or her versus a baby that somebody else has given to me to adopt and love?”
But I've never had a family come home, nothing other than excited and happy. Of course, they are tired and sometimes even admittedly, a little cranky, because it's it is exhausting.
But for the most part, the families that we work with do really well once they're home. And the skin-to-skin touch is so important and something that we always encourage families to do to encourage bonding.
Nicole:
Awesome.
Amy:
And to take off as much time from work as humanly possible to be home with the baby.
Nicole:
Yes, for both parents, if they are too adopting. Oh, yes.
Now, regarding longer term, after the adoption, many hopeful adoptive parents go into the process fully expecting that they don't want to have an ongoing relationship with the birth mom. And I think this springs from the idea that an open relationship is akin to cooperating. And I know that when I'm working with my clients prior to them adopting, and I tell them, “I know you won't believe me now, and that's fine”, and they don't.
But down the road, it is almost always the adoptive parents that are looking for more contact with the birth parents than the birth parents are. And I think that once things shift and their focus isn't so much about, “I want a baby. I want to start my family” to “Now I'm a parent and I want to do everything I can for this child. And if they have questions, I want to help them to be able to get them answered and so on.”
And also down the road, I think once families realize that open adoption is not cooperating and once people have built trust and established boundaries and realize that they kind of generally think of each other as extended family, anyway, not all relationships get to that point, but more so than people think.
But going into an adoption, most of what I see are that they start as semi open, where they might have some ongoing contact through texts or emails or pictures, that kind of thing. But they haven't necessarily shared identifying information or they're not initially going and planning to meet in person. And then often, those adoptive parents are incredibly surprised when down the road they decide that they would actually like that.
Either of you have any thoughts of related to openness or things that you've seen your clients go through with that that's different from their expectations going in?
Amy:
I definitely find that a lot of families are very afraid of a more open adoption because they don't know who she is and they don't know what she's about. And I think it's kind of a fear of the unknown.
But there are also varying degrees of open adoption. You can have an open adoption that just means phone calls and emails or text messaging. And you can have an open adoption that includes visits, and kind of everything in between.
So, I think that a lot of the fear comes from, “We don't know who she is.” But I always assure families that when you meet her, the likelihood of you really liking her is very, very great. You're going to love her. She's going to help make you parents. And if she wants more, you can find a way to give it to her where all of you are comfortable.
This is not co-parenting and this is certainly not a babysitting arrangement. You are the parents; you call the shots. And if there is a time where somebody oversteps boundaries or there's a comfort level that you reach, that for whatever reason, you're uncomfortable, I guess, would be a better way to say it, that that's when you have to assert yourself and have real and frank conversations with her.
The last thing she wants to do is overstep any boundaries because she doesn't want to jeopardize your relationship.
Nicole:
Right.
And just as you would with any other family member.
Amy:
Yeah, absolutely.
Nicole:
Okay.
So, tied to this idea of fears about co-parenting are fears that you always hear the phrase about, “The birth mom can show up on my doorstep and take the child back.” So, Rob, can you address that from a legal perspective?
Rob:
Yeah.
So, in Florida, we're fortunate that we have really good, clear adoption laws in the State. So, I'll preface this by saying if any of your listeners are listening from out of State, it's going to vary based on which state that the adoption is happening in.
But in Florida, where we're at once, a birth mother signs a consent to adoption, and she can do that 48 hours after birth or the day of discharge, whichever occurs first, that consent is then what we call binding and irrevocable. Which means once she signs it, {indistinct 26:10} her being able to go to court and show fraud and duress, there is no ability for her to change her mind at that point.
So, she can't sign pre-birth, but once she signs post-birth, then of course, there's going to be that period where adoptive parents are anxious and understandably so, about whether or not the birth mother is going to move forward and execute a consent to adoption. But once she does that, there is no time for her to revoke her consent.
And I think the vast majority of adoption attorneys in the State of Florida will tell you that it's very, very low, the amount of cases they've seen where consent has been overturned because of fraud or duress. And I would say every time that I've seen it, it's because the attorney was inexperienced and didn't do something correctly.
But this fear that a birth mother is going to show up on the doorstep and remove the child from your care just doesn't happen in reality. There's laws that are in place to prevent that from happening. And like I said, in Florida, those laws are very clear and strict. So, that just doesn't really happen here in the State of Florida.
Amy:
I think that only happens in the movies.
Nicole:
Right. Right.
Rob:
That's right.
Nicole:
And taking that one step further, people also have fears related to the birth father. And that he can come back years later and reclaim custody or say, “Oh, I didn't even know she was pregnant” or that if he does, for whatever reason, contest the adoption, that it's sort of game over. That there's no chance of that adoption arrangement continuing.
Rob, can you shine some light on that for us?
Nicole:
Yeah.
And again, here in Florida, we're fortunate to have good laws. So, if a birth mother names a biological father or a potential biological father, then the agency is required to have their legal staff serve on him paperwork that says, “Hey, this child is being placed for adoption.” This can happen even pre-birth.
So, our goal is always to have these type of issues. And it doesn't happen all the time, but our goal is to have any of these issues with potential birth fathers wrapped up by the time that the child is here, or at least, we have a really good sense of what that looks like.
So, oftentimes they have 30 days to do a list of three things. And if they do those things, then they can move forward and say, “I would like to conduct the adoption.” But obviously, the vast majority of them don't respond to that.
And there are great laws in place in Florida. So, if a birth mother, for whatever reason, doesn't name a biological father, once she signs it to adoption and once the child is placed with the prospective adoptive parent, the birth father cannot come back then and “show up” for lack of a better term, show up on somebody's doorstep, like we were talking about the birth mother. That just doesn't happen.
And the law is very clear that says, “For whatever reason, even if it was fraudulent, if a birth mother doesn't name a biological father by the time she signs consent to adoption, the court cannot remove the child from the adoptive parents and place them with the birth father.
So, again, I know it's I'm a broken record, Nicole, but again, I'm going to reiterate, very important to hire competent counsel and make sure that your agency is hiring competent counsel when dealing with these type of issues, because – I know, Amy Imber and I have been in some cases where the legal work made things much more difficult in the long run. And typically, it's because they've hired attorneys who don't practice adoption law and don't specialize in the area and have made some mistakes that somebody has to come up behind them and clean up.
So, just like anything, great to consult competent professionals and ask their opinions on the agency and their legal staff.
Nicole:
Right.
That is not the place to try to save some money in adoption. Right?
Rob:
100 percent.
Nicole:
Okay.
So, for the last one, I just want to wrap up with another post-adoption myth that will be propagated – no pun intended – by many people, when you tell them that you're planning to adopt. And that is that you are more likely to get pregnant once you have adopted.
So, I just want to wrap up by pointing out that that is completely statistically untrue. And people who adopt are statistically just as likely to become pregnant after their adoption as they were before their adoption. So, there is no mathematical truth to that at all. Okay.
So, just wrapping up today, I really appreciate you all listening. Again, I'm Nicole Witt, with The Adoption Consultancy. You can find me online at www.theadoptionconsultancy (C-O-N-S-U-L-T-A-N-C-Y).com. theadoptionconsultancy.com
And again, I'd like to thank Amy Imber, Executive Director of Connecting Hearts Adoption. You can find her at her website, connectinghearts.com.
And Rob Webster, Board-Certified adoption attorney with Jeanne T. Tate PA. And you can email him directly at rob(R-O-B)@jtatelaw(J-T-A-T-E-L-A-W).com
Thanks again to all of you listening for allowing me to be part of your journey. Take care of yourselves and stay well.