Episode 2 Podcast > Full Transcript
Lori Holden, Intro:
Early in my adoptive parenting days, when my kids were first becoming able to talk about their adoptedness, and continuing through their adolescence, I was on alert for signs that adoption had hurt them. I'd been listening to adult adoptees, and I knew that this could happen, but I was determined to detect and neutralize any negative feelings that came up as much as I could. Well, that was pretty misguided, for a couple of reasons. One, that I would be able to neutralize any emotion with logic and reason. Emotions, especially ones that come from a preverbal experience, just don't work that way. Two, that it would even be advisable to try to thwart half of the spectrum of emotions; the entire half that I had labeled as negative.
Much of what I learned in writing the book, Adoption Unfiltered, with an adoptee, an attachment educator, and a birth parent is that there is value in feeling the full range of emotions. Feeling is a way toward healing; a truth that can go against the inclinations of well-meaning adoptive parents like me. So, this is what we'll explore in this episode with our two adoptee guests. If you've ever wanted to make sure your adoptee doesn't feel sad or mad about being adopted, if you think part of being a good parent is to protect your child from feeling bad about adoption, or anything else, you're going to want to hear what Lauren Fishbein and Glenna Boggs have to say. Welcome to Adoption the Long view from one podcaster to two others. Welcome, Lauren.
Lauren Boggs:
Hi. Thank you so much for having me.
Lori:
Thanks. And welcome to you, Glenna.
Glenna Fishbein:
Hello. It's great to be here.
Lori:
Let me tell you both a little bit about yourselves because I'm really good at doing this. Lauren Fishbein is an international transracial adoptee adopted from Temuco, Chile. Lauren is a psychotherapist and a parent coach with a trauma-informed lens and an openhearted approach; which you know that I love. Lauren specializes in working with adoptees and their families. Lauren is the cohost of the podcast Unearthing Adoption along with Glenna. On this podcast, while still acknowledging that adoption is trauma, Lauren and Glenna discuss and share positive perspectives on adoption.
Glenna Boggs, shethey, is an international adoptee, musician, and music teacher. Glenna was adopted from Russia alongside her twin sister when they were 9 months old. Glenna began their own journey with their adoption after taking an adoption and communications course in college. Shortly thereafter, she began writing music to help process emotions from her adoption. They are passionate about adoption stories and the positive impact music can have on all people.
So, it's such a pleasure to have you here today. We got to meet last year at an adoption camp, Heritage Camps For Adoptive Families. We got to share a cabin. And I think that was kind of fortuitous that we ended up both being podcasters and exploring adoption emotions. So, let's start with each of you briefly giving us any context you'd like to about your adoption story. Lauren, would you start?
Lauren:
Yeah, sure. So, I was adopted when I was 6 weeks old from Temuco, Chile, and I grew up In Baltimore, Maryland in a very white community. And I really didn't think much about my adoption. My mother was also adopted, and I had family members who are also adopted. So, it was sort of a norm in my family. And whenever it was spoken about, it was just a part of life. And it wasn't until I was in graduate school, when I was 24, that I began to look at my adoption and the potential impact that it had on me.
And once I did That and once I read the articles, read the books, I understood that adoption actually impact every aspect of my life. But previously, if you had asked me, I would say, “Oh, adoption didn't impact me at all.” Those rose-colored glasses, I was quite in the fog. And it wasn't until my mid-twenties when I had the journey of coming out of the fog and really understanding, looking at, and integrating my adoption trauma.
And I'm in reunion with my birth family. I just met them all in June. It is a very profound experience, and it feels really good. I feel much more whole, but also being in reunion has also brought up a whole slew of emotions that I didn't know existed.
Lori:
There's really nothing simple about adoption, being adopted, adopting, placing a child for adoption, all of it has so many layers. And it's also lifelong too. It keeps unfolding as we get to each stage of our lives. Thank you for giving us that context, Glenna. What about your story?
Glenna:
So, I was adopted alongside my twin from Russia when we were 9 months old. And kind of same story as Lauren; grew up talking about it. My parents were open about our adoption. And so, just kind of grew up with with that. And then in high school, I got curious as one does. And I was sifting through a bunch of my parents' stuff. My dad was in the army, and so I loved looking at his old army stuff. And I came across all of our adoption documents. And I found my birth name and my sister's birth name, my passport, and just all of the things, including my birth mom's information.
And that opened up a lot for me emotionally, as well as just informationally. I was really angry. I was confused. I grew up Thinking that my bio mom didn't name myself or my twin. I mean, that was really harmful. And so, I was really angry for a long time and I kind of took those feelings away for a while.
And then in my third year of college, went to the University of Denver, and I took an adoptions course taught by doctor Elizabeth Suter, and I met Lauren at this adoption course. And I also took a look at my own adoption and started processing and was introduced to the world of adoption. And here I am today writing music about it and teaching music.
Lori:
Wonderful. And I'd like to get into that in a bit too, but I'm noticing that both of you started this coming out of the fog and this as, Dr. Jae Won Kim is talking about; coming into adoptee consciousness, as young and mid-adults maybe. Why doesn't it happen earlier? Do you have any thoughts on why doesn't it happen at 12 or 15 or 7? Lauren, do you have any thoughts on that? You're the you're the therapist and maybe you've talked to parents about this.
Lauren:
I think the sense of identity really shifts when we're older. When we're away from our parents, we're developing who we are. Like, who do I want to be in in the world? And I think before then, our sense is a little bit dimmed or in the shadows of that.
I think also, I think there are 8-year-olds, 10-year-olds, 12-year-olds who are actually interested in this information too. I've worked with a number of clients who are quite young. And to me, it's surprising, but to them, they're like, “Yeah. I need to know. And I have tons of questions.” And I don't know why I wasn't a person who had a ton of questions until I was older.
Lori:
Glenna, do you have any thoughts on that that you would like to share?
Glenna:
I think it kind of – I mean, it depends. Obviously, everybody's story is different, and I completely agree with what I heard Lauren says most of the time. And, I don't know, I think for me, it was it's kind of hard to understand, especially when you're so far away from it. Like, as an international adoptee, Russia is on the other side of the planet. So, literally, you're physically away; far away. And it's not in my brain. I don't remember anything from when I was adopted, being 9 months old. So, It's just something that was so – Well, not was – that is just in my body. It's not in my conscious. It's not my memories. And so, just the idea of it is kind of displaced.
Lori:
Let me just go off on that for a moment because It's totally understandable that you don't remember that; it was before you had words to think with. Does that mean it wasn't important? Does that mean that time before you got here didn’t matter?
Glenna:
Absolutely not. And I think it matters even more so. And it matters even more so to Investigate it and to look at it. And, I mean, it took a therapist looking me straight in the face, telling me that for me to really recognize that. And I remember that being so shocking because I was like, “I don't remember anything. Why should it matter?” And then upon talking to a therapist and realizing, “No, this is important, and this is impacting your daily life and your relationships and every part of you” to change it and to start looking inward.
Lori:
Thank you so much for sharing that. I look back on how we approached adoption in the 20th century and some of the harmful practices that we had. And what I come down to is that the fundamental belief that made us accept those practices was that a baby was a blank slate and that it didn't really matter. So, I really appreciate your thoughts on that.
Lauren, did you have anything that you wanted to add to A blank slate idea or pre-verbal memories?
Lauren:
Yeah. I think Glenna named it so well. I just think that now we know better. Now we know. There's research, there's data that shows that the time in the womb, the first two years of life when the part of the brain that stores memories isn't created is so important because it creates this blueprint for life regarding our survival. And so, if the first 9 months of your life was in a human who didn't want to be connected to you, that's going to impact your attachment to yourself and every single human around you. And so, there's these things, thank goodness, that we know now so we can tend to them earlier than later when adoptee suicide rates are, 4 times more likely than our non-adopted counterparts, and there's a reason why. And I'm really glad that there's data that can point to, “Okay, let's be looking at this preverbal trauma that's happening so that there can be tools and there's these pieces that can lead to healing.”
Lori:
Yeah. Thanks to current and emerging neuroscience, we know better than that blank slate. We just have to get that word out to everybody who thinks that adoption was always done that way and always should be done that way where it didn't matter.
You mentioned the college course that you took and you met at. Glenna, would you talk a little bit about that course? And then Lauren, I'll ask you to talk about how the two of you met.
Glenna:
Yeah. So, it's an advanced seminar class. And what that means is all the students that go to DU have to take a freshman seminar. So, you take that your 1st year, and then your 3rd year, you take an advanced seminar. And it's it can be on whatever you want.
And I was a music major. I studied bassoon performance. And so, I was really just heavily immersed in learning how to play the bassoon, obviously, and spent hours and hours and hours doing that. And so, I don't know, I was – this girl that I was dating at the time, we were trying to figure out what ASEMs we wanted to take, and she was like, “Oh, there's an ASEM on adoption. Aren't you adopted?” And I was like, “Well, yeah. I happen to be adopted. Yeah.” She was like, “Oh, let's take it.”
And so, It's kind of funny to say that, really, I was just taking it because I happen to be adopted, and I needed an ASEM. And within the first class. I was like, “Oh, man. Like, this is going to be way different than I expected.” And I was the only adopted person in the class. I just went through it. I absolutely went through it. It was really hard because it was the first time that I looked inwardly at it. And I realized and I heard all of these terms like, the adoption fog. And I learned about attachment. I started going to therapy when I was taking the class. And, yeah, fortunately met Lauren and I basically tackled her after the class that she came and visited because I was like, “I need to talk to her. Like, she knows so much.”
And, yeah, I mean, I'm grateful we met and obviously started a podcast. And, yeah, it was just a lot. And it's amazing. Dr. Souter is incredible, And I think it's awesome that it was offered at the college level. Because a lot of people now just take it because they're interested in learning about adoption, and they can get so many different perspectives. So, it's really cool.
Lori:
Yeah. I'd like to offer big kudos to Dr. Souter for envisioning that class and to the University of Denver for continuing to offer it. I met doctor Souter also at Heritage Camps For Adoptive Families. And that kind of awareness that happens in these spaces, your ASEM class and Heritage Camps For Adoptive Families, which is where the adoptive parents come into consciousness, a lot of times when we're doing that work too. That's so important for us all to stay current with what's actually going on and more and more listening to adoptee voices. Lauren, let's switch over to you.
Lauren:
Yeah. So, doctor Souter reached out to me and asked me to come talk at her class, and I was really excited. I think it was just around COVID, and so I think it was my first interaction back in the real world in that way. And I remember hearing there was only one adoptee in the class. I was actually surprised because a lot of people or a decent amount wanted to adopt. Like, they were actually interested in adopting. And I remember being so fascinated by that. Like, “Oh, right. People are still interested in this thing that I'm learning all of these really terrible things about.” And anyway, so, yeah, I left the class feeling great. And then Glenna runs after me. And yeah, exactly how Glenna just explained, like, “Hi, let's talk.” And the rest is history.
We just clicked so quickly. And we met and got coffee a couple of times, and then we did some panels with Raise the Future who used to be – they used to be called Adoption Exchange, and now they're Raise the Future. And we did some panels, and then Glenna said we should do a podcast. And I was like, “Yes.”
Lori:
And who is the audience? Who is your target audience for your podcast?
Glenna:
I would say adoptees and adopted parents. And, I mean, anyone who's – I would just say anyone; anyone who is interested. And It's funny because I think when we started the podcast, we didn't necessarily know. I think we were just kind of like podcast. And it's cool because the majority of the interactions that I've had through the podcast are with non-adopted people. And I think that's really cool. But it was also my bridge to meeting just, I mean, the adoption community and other adoptees, which is just really beautiful. So, it's been such a great medium for connection.
Lori:
Yeah. The community that you can find in these places can be really helpful. Your podcast recently went through an identity clarification, which is a fancy way of saying that you changed its name from its original name. What has been the identity arc of your podcast since you started diving into people's adoptedness in this way, Lauren?
Lauren:
So, What Glen and I figured out was that even though we both believe (and know) adoption is a trauma that there gets to be another door to open. And there are so many incredibly resilient adoptees, many that we've had; all of the ones on our podcast, I would say, are extremely resilient. And we, sort of on this parallel process, found that inside of ourselves, I would say. And we went from this lens of it's tough love, like, “Uh, just a knife in the heart”, to, “Let's take that knife out and let's infuse us with gold.” And how can we, with our trauma, with the parts that do feel really broken, but how can we allow that to be a door of healing? How can we do that and then spread it so that other adoptees who have suicide rates equal to veterans; like, how can we shift that?” I think that's really where we came from with this Identity upgrade. What did you call it? I loved what you called it. But yeah.
Lori:
Clarification. I love that approach because you're not talking about, like, vanquishing it, which is separating yourself from the trauma. You're talking about kind of integrating and bringing it in and that kind of healing instead of the pushing away; a separate way. You've chosen more the attracting way; the bringing in and resolving way. Glenna, do you have anything that you'd like to add to that?
Glenna:
I think Lauren summed it up just beautifully. I agree with everything she said. And it feels that way too. And it feels good to represent that. And, I mean, when I started the podcast, I lit– Well, when we started the podcast, I literally felt broken. I felt like I was a broken human being. And it's interesting even just going back and listening to the first couple of episodes, like, I sound broken. And that's because that's what I believed. And now truly, I can look back and I can say, like, “I don't feel broken. I'm not a broken person.” And it allows me to serve the adoption community in I think a more realistic view. And it's just, yeah, it feels healthier, and it feels better.
Lori:
Isn't there a Japanese word along these lines about how the brokenness is where the light comes in or something like that or the gold that you were talking about? They sealed their broken things with gold. Right?
Lauren:
Yeah, Kintsugi.
Lori:
Kintsugi. Yeah. That's a beautiful metaphor. And I think another important part of what you're saying, Glenna, is that It can get worse before it gets better, but you kind of have to go through that to get to the other side and to like, if somebody is going to embark on this inner journey, and it gets really hard at first, that's not a cause to quit. That might be a cause to keep going. Isn't that kind of what happened to you, Glenna?
Glenna:
Yep. Absolutely. And even when people quit around you, and it might be that the people close to you quit, I think it's important to keep going. Because as the adoptee – and this is something that Lauren just deeply instilled in me, whether or not she knows it, is you have the power to keep going because you yourself are an empowered person.
Lori:
And I think, also, my use of the word quit is maybe harsh. That really pausing is okay too. Because this is inner work, it has to be inter directed, and we have to kind of know what we're up for and what we aren't. so, I want to come back to what I had said.
Let's go to the topic at hand today. It's absolutely understandable that a parent would not want their child to hurt about anything ever. And while we're careful not to place fault on parents for their care and concern, I think we need to further explore this drive to encourage adoptees not to feel their negative emotions. What would you, Lauren, like adoptive parents to know about perhaps being too invested in making sure that their child doesn't experience hurt from their adoption?
Lauren:
I think that this is such an important question because what I think happens is that when parents learn about how traumatizing adoption is, they just want to shield their adoptee; exactly as you're saying. And I like to use the metaphor of nature and how we need adversity to grow. So, it's actually really okay for a tree or a plant to experience a drought. It's actually okay, like, when the wind blows, it helps the roots to strengthen. And if you just have a plant, a happy plant, who everything is perfect, then potentially when something does come intense, it's not going to recover as quickly or it might just die. Now, I'm not saying that this human is going to die, but I just mean for when we think about it from nature, nature is rough. It's really intense out there. And it's important to fall down and to get up. It's important to be able – You said this earlier, Lori, like, feeling is healing. You must feel it in order to heal it.
And so, just how inside nature, the brutality of nature is to make it stronger so that its offspring or the next generation can actually make it instead of – Survival of the fittest; this is a real thing. And when we block human beings, all human beings, but especially adoptees from healing, I think that's when our anxiety, our depression goes through the roof. We have no skill set to deal with the weather of everyday life.
Lori:
Yeah. I think what you're talking about is called antifragility. And what that makes me think of is when those astronauts come back from being on the space shuttle and they can't walk because they haven't used their muscles and bones in an earthly way for a while and they haven't worked it. And so, they have to kind of get that back gradually.
And the other thing I want to say as an adoptive parent is that we don't want to make our kids experience adversity, but we want to let them and we want to do it while they're in our care. We don't want their first experiences with adversity to be when they leave our home and they go off to college or off to their next step or something like that and we aren't there to be with them and to boost their confidence and just let them know that they're attached to something. So, I think that's really, really important.
Glenna, what do you have to say about adoptive parents really being uncomfortable with some of these harder emotions?
Glenna:
Well, I feel that – I'm not a parent – but I feel this a lot as a teacher. I teach K through 5 music, and I have the same feelings with some of my kids. Because when it comes to lessons or consequences, it is hard in the moment. It was interesting what you said about you don't want them to have to face this when they're out of your care. I feel that with my kids. I don't want them to deal with these things when they're graduated out of my class; they've gone out of 5th grade. So, I feel that too.
But I also think that it comes down to, like, adoptionwise and just thinking with my story, particularly, it's also how the adoptive parents deal with emotions themselves. And I won't speak for my parents here, but they deal with emotions differently than how I've learned to deal with emotions. So, I kind of had to learn in my own way almost. But I think as a teacher and just as a human being who encounters a lot of emotions, I think you can do one thing, and perhaps the impact will happen 20 years later, 15 years later. And I mean, I'm 25 and that happens all the time to me now with things that people have said to me and things my parents have said to me that's impacting me later, and it's a lesson that it follows you.
Lori:
And here's what might also be going on. If my kids are hurting about it, this is from the parents' perspective, then that might mean I've done something wrong and I have to correct it. And you kind of touched on this, Lauren, a little bit when you said when we start to realize that there is trauma inherent in adoption and we've participated that and we've caused that, we have to make up for it by making everything so much more positive and happy. So, we have our own egos in this too. It's not just about our not wanting our kids to feel. It's about us perhaps feeling responsible or not good enough. Lauren, what else might you want to say on that?
Lauren:
Yeah. I just wanted to say, too, that while, obviously, parents don't want to just traumatize their kids extra, like, we're not trying to expose you. We're not trying to, like, leave outside in an ice storm. Like, “Good luck. How are you, like, deal with that?”
But it's about understanding that as adoptees, we've already experienced one of the most traumatizing experiences of being taken away from the human who gave birth to us. And so, it's like we've already experienced that; we've already experienced the loss. And so, turning towards it, it's not as though you're introducing something that a part of us, maybe unconscious part of us isn't aware of. It's like we already know it, if that makes sense.
Lori:
Absolutely. Yeah. It's not like we're revealing something that you didn't already know. Even if you don't have it in a verbal way, the body-mind knows, like Glenna was saying before.
Lauren, you coach adoptive families. What are two or 3 ‘aha’s’ that you observe adoptive parents having from working with you?
Lauren:
So, first, I want to say that I feel really lucky to have the clients that I have. Some of the ‘aha's’ are when they realize that so much of what is happening can be shifted with them just pausing and taking a breath, and they really can see how their reactiveness is impacting the whole system. So, that's one of them.
And the second one is, I think what – I don't know when this happened, but parenting was taught that you are the teacher of this human, which is absolutely 100% true, But parents try to make everything a teaching moment. And what I have learned is that when they can just pause and actually verbatim say what their kid just said to them, not changing their words. That's another thing we learned, like, you have to say it a little bit differently. But when you say it the way that they have just said it to you, it allows your child to actually see themselves and hear themselves as a mirror reflected back to them. So, instead of them teaching, making it a teaching moment, I don't know. An example is, “Oh, I don't want to do homework.” And instead of them saying, “Well, we have to do homework because x, y, and z.” If you just say, You don't really feel like doing homework.” That simple. And that actually then opens up a door for your kid or teen to express what's actually happening.
So, I'm getting defensive because now you're in teacher mode, and they don't want to listen, and they don't want to do it. And so, it creates that open heartedness, heart connection instead of creating disconnection, which is what I see a ton of, And I see everyone suffering.
Lori:
How I wish, and I'm sure my kids wish that I had been to visit you many years ago because what you're saying about that active listening and that responding just with validation, that's when somebody feels seen and heard, and that's what kids need more than anything is to be seen and heard for who they are and what they're going through in that moment. Those are some great ‘aha's.’ Glenna, did you have anything you wanted to add on to what Lauren was saying?
Glenna:
Oh, I just was agreeing with the being open hearted. And it's totally it goes against your instincts. I mean, literally as a teacher, I, all the time, just want to be, like, “Just sit down. Look. Stop moving your body for 5 seconds” or whatever it is, or “Stop punching Billy for 5 seconds.”
But yeah, it's so cool. And it's cool too. It's really cool to see it. You know, you'd look a 6-year-old in the face, and you say, “I understand that you're upset. I can see that you're upset. Your body is showing me that you're upset.” And they look at you like, you notice. You understand. Like, “Yes. I am upset.”
I remember the first time I said, “I'm here for you” to a child. And the way that she looked at – I'll never forget it. It's like it's really powerful. So, yeah, Lauren, thanks for talking about that.
Lori:
That's an interesting shift is that the virtue is not just in turning everything into a teachable moment, but the virtue is being in that present moment and listening and responding instead of reacting. Like as I was listening to what you were saying, Lauren, that reaction that we have, that little freak out moment we have sometimes when we're going to have a conflict and we know we're going to have a conflict. So, those are some ways to diffuse the conflict.
I was so glad that you were both there at our Adoption Unfiltered book release event in Denver. And one of the reasons we wanted you to be there, Lauren, is because we know that this book is going to start some people, adoptees, birth parents, and adoptive parents on their own journey of consciousness into what this is. And it's so important to be supported in those harder moments of as the consciousness kind of sinks in. So, we wanted to have you and other people there to say that there are supports here.
Glenna, you were there as well because you provided our musical entertainment for that evening while we were gathering and signing books and things. So, I wanted to talk to you a little bit, Glenna, as a music educator. How do you see music being helpful in enabling students, adoptees, all people really, to access their full range of emotions?
Glenna:
I'll answer this in two ways; as a music educator and then an adoptee who makes music for the purpose of healing. I mean, as a music educator, sometimes the music room is a place for children to come and escape and to kind of release the expectations that are being placed upon them. They're asked to do a lot. And it's nice just to be able to come into music and just have fun. Music making is fun, and moving to music is fun. Playing music is fun, and it's a good escape for people. And there's so much science that goes into making music and vibrations and drums and just how good it is for your body and for your mind and developing different parts of your body. So, that, I mean, I could go on for eons about that for the music educator side.
But for the adoptee part, I would say that it is genuinely what saved my life, and it gave me purpose. And I think that's what I was really searching for when I first started processing adoption, my adoption stuff, because it was so much. I think, emotionally, I was just completely overtaken. So, I couldn't I couldn't really think logically, and I was dealing with a lot of attachment stuff. And What really brought me back, besides therapy, of course, was music and writing about what I was feeling because it can be a lot.
And then, I mean, it's cool to – I had never performed songs, especially songs that I wrote about adoption in public before, and so it was really cool to be able to do that at your event. It just felt really, like, synchronistic. So, I aim to do more work with this in the future with adoptee specifically outside of teaching music in the public school system. And I just I think it'd be a really neat avenue for adoptees to explore.
And music therapy is a huge world of its own too, and I love talking about music therapy and mentioning it to people because it's a beautiful thing. Just such a great way to connect with yourself and others.
Lori:
This is so out of my wheelhouse, but what I'm thinking is that when we start doing this inner work, it's work and it's hard and getting to these sore spots that we all have is work. But music, we play music; whether we're actually making it or listening to it, it's a play. And so, I did a, podcast episode with doctor Gordon Neufeld with Kelsey and Sarah, my coauthors, and he was talking about how music is a way to kind of access the emotions without the searing experience behind them. And it sounds like that's what you've been able to do with composing it, with performing it. And it brings out something different inside us that is not in the workplace. It's in the play place; the creative place. And so, I just love that you've been able to do that. And I did not get to hear you play very much, so I'm going to have to figure out a way to hear those songs that you played for the rest of our guests.
All right. Here's our last question for this season. And Glenna, I think I'll start with you. What do you wish adoptive parents knew from Day 1 or from this moment they're listening here?
Glenna:
That not one story is the same. Everybody has a different journey, and everybody is at different places in their journey. And this goes for siblings too. My twin and I are have been and I think will be at very different places with our adoption. And that's okay. And that it's a process and that there are ways to do the work in ways that are beautiful, in a ways that are impactful. And while it's hard and while it's scary and while it's unknown, there's a lot of love in it too. So, enjoy the process.
Lori:
I love that. Enjoy the process. And there's no right way and no wrong way. And that helps us suspend judgment of other people. And that brings us to compassion. So, I love that.
Lauren, how about you? What do you wish adoptive parents knew from Day 1 or from right now.
Lauren:
I wish that they knew that it's okay that they can never understand truly, unless they were adopted, what adoption trauma feels like. That's okay. But you must not avoid talking about the loss that comes with adoption and adopting. And to get support for your kid ASAP; like 3, 4 years old before they can say no. Because kids know how to process their trauma. When I get a 3-year-old or a 4, 5, 6-year-old in my office, they work it so hard. I can see their loss. I can see their grief so clearly when they have no language for it at all. They don't even consciously know what they're doing, but I see it played out so clearly in the playroom. It's beautiful. And they just need a safe human to help unlock it with them so that they can be functioning humans later in life.
Lori:
Oh my gosh. That's amazing. That's fabulous. I feel happy in my body hearing you lay out that scene of kids just letting it out in an easeful way. I want everybody to make sure to check out the show notes because we're going to have ways for you to get more of Glenna, maybe even some of Glenna's music, if you've got it. I'm going to ask you that in a minute.
And, Lauren, if families are interested in working with you, I want them to know how they can access you and your resources. I'm just so grateful that you both came on today. I'm grateful for that time that we had at Heritage Camps where we got to know each other. I'm grateful that you were part of our book launch event, and, I hope that we have other reasons to cross paths.
Lauren:
Yeah. Lori, thank you so much for having us. Truly, when we met you, we were so excited. We didn't want to leave. We just wanted to talk to you forever.
Lori:
It was a long goodbye. Wasn't it?
Lauren:
Yeah.
Lori:
Thank you. Thank you, Lauren. Thank you, Glenna.
Glenna:
Yeah. Thank you. I'm it's really cool. It's kind of fun being interviewed and with after doing a podcast for so long. So, thank you so much for having us on and allowing us to share our stories and perspectives, and I'm sure our paths will cross numerous times in the future. So, I look forward to that.
Lori:
Here's to both sides of the mic. A special thanks to adopting.com for producing and sponsoring this podcast. Please subscribe, give this episode a rating, and share with others who are on the journey of adoptive parenting so that more people join in for real talk on the complexities of adoption earlier and earlier in their journey. You will be doing them, as well as me, a favor.
With each episode of Adoption: The Long View, we bring you guests who expand your knowledge of and ease with adoptive parenting. Thanks to each of you for tuning in and investing in your adoptions, long view. May you meet everything on your road ahead with confidence, curiosity, and compassion.